Saturday, July 22, 2006

Israel's Massive Retaliation

On mistakes made by Hamas and Hezbollah:

(Not to lump them together, because these were the same mistakes, made independently.)

The seizures of IDF troops were clever acts, proficiently conducted. (I don't like either Hamas or Hezbollah - just giving credit where credit is due.) These acts - in and of themselves - did not constitute terrorism because they were conducted against standing military forces. That may be one reason for the virulence of the Israeli government. It was a dramatic slap in their national face. Humiliate the IDF and you humiliate Israel. If one micro-tactical military defeat is allowed to stand then it calls into question Israel's invulnerability both in the minds of Arabs and Israelis.

Everyone knows this is not about the fate of one or two soldiers. This is about the symbolism, esteem, prestige (or whatever you want to call it) of the IDF. No laughing matter, of course.

Lebanon is not being destroyed as part of a carefully conceived strategic calculation.

22 Moderated Comments:

Blogger Messenger said...

Juan Cole disagrees with Vigilante, and says Israel's War on Lebanon Planned for at least a Year
. . . .here are also offensive considerations. The Right in Israel is determined to permanently subjugate the Palestinians and forestall the emergence of a Palestinian state. This course of action requires the constant exercise of main force against the Palestinians, who resist it, as well as threats against Arab or Muslim neighbors who might be tempted to help the Palestinians. Thus, Iraq and Iran both had to be punished and weakened. Likewise, the Israeli Right has never given up an expansionist ideology. For instance, the Israelis have a big interest in the Litani River in south Lebanon. If and when the Israeli military and political elite felt they needed to add territory by taking it from neighbors, they wished to retain that capability.

. . . . . That this war was pre-planned was obvious to me from the moment it began. The Israeli military proceeded methodically and systematically to destroy Lebanon's infrastructure, and clearly had been casing targets for some time. The vast majority of these targets were unrelated to Hizbullah. But since the northern Sunni port of Tripoli could theoretically be used by Syria or Iran to offload replacement rockets that could be transported by truck down south to Hizbullah, the Israelis hit it. And then they hit some trucks to let truck drivers know to stay home for a while.

. . . . The Bush administration's perceived economic and geopolitical interests thus overlap strongly with Israel's perceived security interests, with both benefitting from an Israeli destruction of Hizbullah. It is not impossible that the US Pentagon urged the Israelis on in this endeavor. They certainly knew about and approved of the plan.

. . . .So, Bush thought, if that is all that is going on, then someone just needs to call al-Asad and reassure him that we're not going to take him out, and get him to rein in Hizbullah. And then the war would suddenly stop. No one told Bush that this war was actually an Israeli war of choice and that al-Asad had nothing to do with it, that, indeed, it could only happen because al-Asad is already irrelevant. . . .

7/24/2006 08:21:00 AM  
Blogger skip sievert said...

Israel is a forward military base for the U.S.- All so called wars are planned in the sense that this is how money is made, and the template of ideas enforced. What is more important, making money or the enforcing of these barbaric religious dogmas.? It may be a toss up. None of these players work to any good end. Only a very negative outcome will happen. There is no hope in the political system in the U.S. - It is run and has been run since the late 1940`s by the corporate machine. All of the choices made by these players turn against humans. All choices are based on getting more money. Money measures nothing real. It is an abstract concept which measures another abstract concept, debt. I would like to invite the readers of this blog to check out the Technocracy movement. It has some real answers to the problems that are intractable in todays society. Please take a little time to get familiar with this most radical of social proposals. It offers freedom, and creativity. It gets rid of politicians and money. It no longer allows private property. Sound radical.? It just might take a program like this if we want to survive. Besides it would be a lot of fun. It would be nice to have a society that we could be proud of. Explore Technocracy -- Thank you Friends. Skip Sievert

7/24/2006 05:16:00 PM  
Blogger the WIZARD, fkap said...

vigilante, You and I approached this issue from opposite directions, yet came to exactly the same conclusion. Israel's heavy handed destruction of Lebanon is nothing less than a stunning defeat for Israel and its principle backer, The United States.

If our goal is to truely defeat the terrorists, we better stop handing them victories on a silver platter.

See my newest essay, We All Lose.

the Wizard.........

7/24/2006 06:01:00 PM  
Blogger Beach Bum said...

Absolutely Wizard. Terrorism will only be defeated when the reasons for the hopelessness and fear that prompt young people to behavior we find unthinkable are eliminated. Killing civilians in both Iraq and Lebanon only helps to spread and increase terrorism. But both our president and, sadly, a lot of civilians in this country live by the creed: "kill them all, and let God sort them out".

7/24/2006 06:34:00 PM  
Anonymous Pekka said...

Wizard's essay, We All Lose, is great! Go and reas it or elese...

7/24/2006 07:38:00 PM  
Blogger skip sievert said...

Your essay, we all lose is as inane a piece of writing that I have ever seen. You people don`t seem to get the bigger picture that is going on here. You are mouthing what is considered to be the issues. Unless you people can figure out what the real issue`s are that are involved here, you will just go around in circles. Preaching and moralizing of the kind you are doing will not work. In fact this is exactly what the powers that be like. Divide and Conquer. My book, Beyond the Cloak of Deception - is available at -for free. I am a member at large of Technocracy. I can tell from the conversation , the way you people are conceptualizing things that you are mostly clueless as to what is really going on. There are other technocracy sites. is a good one. You people sound very brainwashed here. I can tell you what the culprit is. It is the Price System. You people have never apparently understood what alternative is. The way this site seems is very in the box. Almost like you are all working for the government. Like you have been given the role of official dissidents and are programed with some recycled mainstream ideas. This as far as I can tell is not a very creative space.

7/24/2006 09:36:00 PM  
Blogger the WIZARD, fkap said...

skip, How is that whole "insulting people into agreement" thing working out for you?


the Wizard..........

7/25/2006 05:39:00 AM  
Blogger skip sievert said...

Is that the best you can do.? Be defensive.? I am doing you a service. As I said I don`t think this little nest understands what alternative is. - I am the type of person that doesn`t bullshit much in the realm of ideas. Believe me I have not been insulting to you. You don`t want to see that side of me.- I have been kind. I just know from experience that people in this country are in a deep slumber. It is not that easy to rouse people. True I write in a rhetorical polemic style at times to rattle cages. -- What I would like is for you to understand the actual ideas I might be bringing up. - I am sure that you are are a perfectly intelligent person. I am only trying to alert you, and this group that there is a deeper level to all this, and that level is the level to understand if you want to get in there and change society. That is the reason I am hitting you over the head with it. You have apparently never run across the concepts.---- One of the great American radicals of all time, Howard Scott, also a scientist/engineer, and M.King Hubbert a famous geologist/scientist, plus a number of social scientists came up with the technocracy concepts back in the 1920`s. --- I just wish that the cluster of people on this site , who are obviously interested in society , and the future, would explore this area. The movement which calls for the elimination of our political system, and the corporation in this land area is a whole nother ball game. Sorry about the way I communicate what I feel is a lack of original ideas , as said on this site. I just want to point out a real alternative.

7/25/2006 07:19:00 AM  
Blogger Vigilante said...

Messenger, Bilmon takes my side. He says this is a War by Tantrum; not motivated by a strategic calculation, but by the

"the brutal arithmetic of reprisal. . . It has the smell of panic about it. . . an exercise that served no rational purpose other than to vent. . . rage.

. . . . It's as if the Israelis were deliberately trying to do something so horrible it would force our idiot president to demand an immediate cease fire in place: Please stop us, because we can't stop ourselves.

. . . More likely, Halutz has simply lost his head. His faith in air power is being revealed as a false religion. The rockets are still falling on Haifa and all across the north. The promissary notes he wrote to the Israeli cabinet are being called in, and he can't pay them. Israeli is being forced closer and closer to a place it desperately does not want to go -- a full-scale ground invasion against tough, well-prepared and well-fortified defenses, with a guerrilla army ready to fight delaying actions every step of the way to the Litani River, or beyond.

Halutz should be relieved of duty, just as the head of the Israel's Northern Command should be relieved for the original ambush that led to this fiasco. But . . . . neither the Prime Minister nor his Defense Minister have the military leadership credentials to fire two ranking commanders in the middle of a war."

In this, the Israeli PM is like our American POTUS.

7/25/2006 08:59:00 AM  
Blogger Vigilante said...

Skip, I invite you set up a single thread in Sozadee dedicated to "Technocracy".

In the meantime, I'm about to ban you from The Vigil as constituting a commercial enterprise and disruptive to ongoing discussions.

7/25/2006 09:36:00 AM  
Blogger skip sievert said...

It`s obvious that the vigil is in love with its own inane musings. That last post sounds like you have turned the war into a personel soap opera. A way to play out your thoughts of the twisted ideas that pass for the main stream . --- Like I need you . ha. ha.~! Thats lame. Why is it that free speech is such a scary thing for spoiled unoriginal thinkers. Is the best you can do is fly a flag upside down.? Pardon me for interfering with your war gaming. I know a bunch of brain washed zombies when I read them.You are victims of culture and belief. You look up to this stuff , instead of around it. -- Ban me.? Ever heard of the Free Speech movement. It started in California. Commercial enterprise.? I am giving away a book. --- People are stupid. I am a person. Therefore I am stupid. I am glad that I am not as stupid though as you Vigilante. Do you think that I care what you think.? It was only a public service, for me to try and communicate with this little nest of closed loop thinkers.

7/25/2006 12:47:00 PM  
Anonymous Pekka said...

Skip, you have to forgive your parents sometime!

7/25/2006 02:46:00 PM  
Blogger Messenger said...

What I say is that Wizard is an incredible judge of character....

7/25/2006 06:48:00 PM  
Blogger Vigilante said...

Skip, that was a first class rant. It was almost as enjoyable to read as it must have been to write.

The war is personal for me, but far from a soap opera. It is an American tragedy without parallel in history. It is a un-provoked, unnecessary, largely unilateral invasion and unplanned occupation of Iraq (UULUIUOI). If I seem operatic on my soap box, I'm okay with that impression. I am maintaining a Vigil until our regime of American war criminals can be deposed and brought to justice for their UULUIUOI; until what you call my 'twisted ideas' pass into the 'mainstream'.

But I find your otherwise outstanding rip a little operatic itself. All I am asking for is discussion and you are screaming about 'free speech'. I'm inclined to venture to your site and practice some of that.

7/25/2006 10:09:00 PM  
Anonymous DB Cooper said...

In light of how long it's taking us to be rid of this unconstitutional, warmongering regime in the White House, how can we complain about the Lebanese being unable to to dislodge the Hezbollah?

7/26/2006 07:15:00 AM  
Anonymous Emily said...

Vigilante, stop it:

"The war is personal for me,"

The war is over. It's the OCCUPATION, stupid.

7/26/2006 09:05:00 AM  
Blogger skip sievert said...

There is not, or will not be political solution. It has to be a societal change. Politics is the problem. Corporations run Politics. We no longer need this type of system. Either you are part of the problem or you are part of the solution. Why not explore a new solution that gets rid of the fundamental problem. I now know that you think that a change can be made within the system. That won`t happen. The system has to change. You can help. You are wasting your time now. Why take the conservative approach of this belief system.? Why not work for real social change.? --- Divide and conquer is the method . Politicos like you folks are being cruelly manipulated. Technocracy offers some real choices. I hope you will look into it. --- With the system that you support we will destroy ourselves. Why.? To make money. Sound cracy.? Yes. That is your future unless you change it.

7/26/2006 03:25:00 PM  
Blogger Blogging4Food said...

Workers of the world, you have nothing to lose but your chains!

7/26/2006 03:36:00 PM  
Blogger skip sievert said...

Vigilante I do not really think you are stupid. I get carried away in my cage rattling. You are free on any of my several sites , but mostly there is only statements of ideas there. I do most all my writing elsewhere. Mostly they direct people to other places. A favorite site now is a Canadian one. It is run by an elderly Canadian.

7/26/2006 03:43:00 PM  
Blogger Raven said...

Hey Vigilante! Don't you get it? Skip is spamming you. His disjointed and mostly bizarre observations, mixed with his personal attacks, are designed to garner the attention of the readers, encourage them to visit his site, and buy his ridiculous books. This man has nothing to say.

7/29/2006 02:13:00 PM  
Blogger MadMike said...

Juan Cole was refused tenure by Yale University and is now teaching at the U of M. Some suspect it is because of his opinions, and in particular his blog. After all the First Amendment only applies to the government when it tries to deny you the benefits of that cornerstone of the Bill of Rights. Anyone else can discriminate all they want. Cole has spent a lot of time studying this region of the world and what he writes makes sense. Personally I care less as long as the terrorists are destroyed.

7/29/2006 03:09:00 PM  
Blogger skip sievert said...

Dear Raven, If you insist on making a big deal of my book I won`t stop you. You are wrong.I am here as a public service,and only for a little while. I looked for the most ignorant left wing site, and tha most ignorant right wing site, to experiment and see if it were possible to wake up the sleeping. So far it has only been a writing exercise for me with no results. The other right wing site is TonyR`s blog from the east coast. I got that one from the Zahaqiel site, as well as this site. I like Zahaqiel by the way,he has a brain.- As far as this site and the other right wing one,it is remarkable how similar the two groups of people are in the sense that they are unable to absorb new ideas, and seem to be pawns or soldiers of brainwashed groups. As far as your slur on my book I couln`t care less. I didn`t do it for money. I don`t need money. It is an idea book. You don`t understand that. It is free. Do you understand that.? There are currently 35,000 copies out. Do you think I could care less what you think about my motives.? About your theory about my marketing.? You are one sick and jaded person.Many people on this and the other site strike me that way.

7/29/2006 07:12:00 PM  

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